Curse

DarkNecrid · Jul 12, 2008, 06:37 AM // 06:37

You are pretty bad if you only factor in the fact of energy gain. Sure, ER possibly does better than SR (depends on SR attributes, if your ER gets stripped or not, etc), but you just sacrificed your elite (and thus a large part of your utility) to do something SR does just fine.

Carinae · Jul 12, 2008, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Yea, because Weapon of Remedy is just oh so good.

upier · Jul 12, 2008, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

That's a quality troll right there. I like how you slid effortlessly from the "shitty builds" meaning of playing badly on the front end of your argument to the "bad at choosing what and when to cast/managing one's energy" meaning playing badly at the back end of your argument without even appearing the slightest bit self-conscious you were engaging in a deliberate equivocation fallacy. Grade-A quality trolling right there. No, it does not make the slightest bit of sense to say that anything that can power bad builds must be an overpowered energy source. "Oh, look, I can power flare spam with ether lord; flare spam is a shitty build; therefore ether lord is overpowered!!" Nice try, but go troll somewhere else.

You misunderstood.
Heroes will ALWAYS play badly in terms of "choosing what and when to cast". So that was taken out of the equation. There is no point in wasting time on a constant.
"Shitty builds" were always builds that could not work because they were to energy intensive.
Or do you feel that monks running 10e skills without any form of e-management are playing good?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Nice to see that more people are understanding this fact.

Wanna make the game harder? Make healers less effective. It's that simple. Make it harder to keep red bars up. Even at 4 SR the N/Rt kicks butt. I just mowed down Riven Earth HM with my N/Rt @ 4 SR and Mhenlo. My SS girl was also set to 4 SR.

You guys can control the rank of SR. Play around with low SR values on the N/Rt and decide what should be done with SR.

That's what I have been saying ALL along for Ursan!
If you don't like - don't use it!
Right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Yea, because Weapon of Remedy is just oh so good.

It actually is.
It's damage, it heals, and it removes a condition.
Almost insta-cast and spamable.
Quite sweet actually.

Carinae · Jul 12, 2008, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

It actually is.
It's damage, it heals, and it removes a condition.
Almost insta-cast and spamable.
Quite sweet actually.

It's Ok, but it's a weapon spell. Casters get less benefit from it, in general. The trade to ER is more than worth it. All the power heals are still on the bar.

around · Jul 12, 2008, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Yes, but you're still missing the point:

If you bring ER, you have 7 skills, plus you have to invest in Energy Storage.
If you go N/Rt, you still have 8 skills to work with, and you only have to invest in SR.

You're taking up an elite skill to do something a single attribute does perfectly.

Also, manitoba - you remind me of people from school who get kicks from being different to everyone else, even when it's detrimental to them.

DarkNecrid · Jul 12, 2008, 11:57 AM // 11:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

Yea, because Weapon of Remedy is just oh so good.

"ok"?

You do know that it is fairly imbalanced (granted, it is outdone by a few other skill combinations right now but yknow...) skill right? If there was a guild wars dictionary you'd find versatile and it would be the definition of it. WoR does everything except hex removal that you would want to do on a rit bar.

It's 5e.
It's spammable.
It does life stealing.
It cures conditions.
It heals.

And it doesn't do the last 3 things that it does suck like at all. If it was like YOU STEAL 25 hp or something, then sure maybe, but it does a fairly substantial life steal (which again, isn't mitigated by armor, so useful all the time), and is good at what it does...which is being everything at the same time.

I wish Monks had an elite that was a prot and a heal spell at the same time. Or at least a good one that was spammable as hell, removed a hex, unremovable, and only cost 5e.

WoR is pretty much the best elite for the Ritualist. It's insane bar compression that doesn't suck, that you can use on anyone quickly, and such.

WoR is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ER. Ya you can keep your energy up, but so can I if I'm a necro and the party knows what they are doing. You should want utility, and ER has no utility for your party. All it does is take up the spot of one of the best things a ritualist has.

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

It's Ok, but it's a weapon spell. Casters get less benefit from it, in general. The trade to ER is more than worth it. All the power heals are still on the bar.

there is more than just power healing everything and you need more than just power heals if you want to be a good rit.

draxynnic · Jul 12, 2008, 03:38 PM // 15:38

I think people are missing the point regarding WoR.

Is it good? Yes.

Is it indispensable? Almost certainly not. It gives a lot of things in one slot, yes, but it's basically a backup for Mend Body and Soul and Vengeful Weapon. You can do without it.

Is N/Rt better than E/Rt due to still having it? Possibly. I might even say likely.

Does it matter? Not really. All the E/Rt needs to be is comparable to N/Rt, and then, even if SR is nerfed into the ground so badly that no-one bothers playing primary Necromancers at all any more, the E/Rt will sooner or later become as much of a balance problem as Sabway. Nerf that, and maybe it'll be those 'silly' Me/Rts - sure, they're not as strong, but if they're strong enough, doesn't that indicate that maybe all those other nerfs were mistargetted?

And hey, if Restoration is balanced by being linked to Spawning Power, maybe Spawning Power will stop being the worst primary in the game and the title can go back to where it belongs: Fast Casting. [/self-deprecatory joke from a primary Mesmer player]

upier · Jul 12, 2008, 04:31 PM // 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I think people are missing the point regarding WoR.

Is it good? Yes.

Is it indispensable? Almost certainly not. It gives a lot of things in one slot, yes, but it's basically a backup for Mend Body and Soul and Vengeful Weapon. You can do without it.

Is N/Rt better than E/Rt due to still having it? Possibly. I might even say likely.

Does it matter? Not really. All the E/Rt needs to be is comparable to N/Rt, and then, even if SR is nerfed into the ground so badly that no-one bothers playing primary Necromancers at all any more, the E/Rt will sooner or later become as much of a balance problem as Sabway. Nerf that, and maybe it'll be those 'silly' Me/Rts - sure, they're not as strong, but if they're strong enough, doesn't that indicate that maybe all those other nerfs were mistargetted?

And hey, if Restoration is balanced by being linked to Spawning Power, maybe Spawning Power will stop being the worst primary in the game and the title can go back to where it belongs: Fast Casting. [/self-deprecatory joke from a primary Mesmer player]

Why did you believe the moronic idea that the resto healer is the problem when it comes to SR?
SR is the problem when it comes to SR.

Chthon · Jul 12, 2008, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

You're taking up an elite skill to do something a single attribute does perfectly.

I really wish that Ensign was still around to explain how terrible WoR is.

I suppose I'll try my best here. Yes, it's three skills in one... but two of them suck ass. It's a damage dealer, but it's a bad one. 63 damage to a pretty much random target is darn near useless. It's a straight heal, but it's a bad one. No, a terrible one. At only 63 healed, it is the weakest heal on your bar, both in terms of hp/e and hp/cast_time. It is excellent condition removal. But, so what? You've got passable non-elite condition removal already. And Foul Feast makes it really tempting to assign condition removal to a necro on your party (either Foul Feast + Infuse Condition or Foul Feast + Plague Sending).

Aside from situations where you really need the condition removal effect, the only thing WoR really has going for it is that most of the other elite options for a resto build suck even worse. SLW? Preservation? You get the point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

I think people are missing the point regarding WoR.

Is it good? Yes.

Is it indispensable? Almost certainly not. It gives a lot of things in one slot, yes, but it's basically a backup for Mend Body and Soul and Vengeful Weapon. You can do without it.

Is N/Rt better than E/Rt due to still having it? Possibly. I might even say likely.

Does it matter? Not really. All the E/Rt needs to be is comparable to N/Rt, and then, even if SR is nerfed into the ground so badly that no-one bothers playing primary Necromancers at all any more, the E/Rt will sooner or later become as much of a balance problem as Sabway. Nerf that, and maybe it'll be those 'silly' Me/Rts - sure, they're not as strong, but if they're strong enough, doesn't that indicate that maybe all those other nerfs were mistargetted?

And hey, if Restoration is balanced by being linked to Spawning Power, maybe Spawning Power will stop being the worst primary in the game and the title can go back to where it belongs: Fast Casting. [/self-deprecatory joke from a primary Mesmer player]

I think you understand perfectly.

DarkNecrid · Jul 12, 2008, 05:53 PM // 17:53

WoR is not terrible in PvE per se. Of course the parts it does aren't EXCEPTIONALLY GOOD. If they were it'd be even more broken. But what it does is do a little bit of everything rather well, so it is useful bar compression/utility. Are there better options? Sure.

Would I consider an elite that you are using because you can't manage energy better? Nope.

(Mind you, I think N/Rts are bad in general, Soul Reaping is too much of a safety net. You should never need an energy management ability, even passive, to run a build like that. But I know they are rather good because of it. Yes, your Me/Rt or E/Rt or whatever Rt or even Rt/X can do just as good, but the N/Rt is better because it gets an extra slot or two to do whatever the hell it wants that the others don't.)

EDIT:
And this topic has changed too much onto the Ritualist issue. Soul Reaping needs to be nerfed for other reasons besides N/Rt, obviously. That isn't to say Resto isn't overpowered in some of its abilities, because a few of them are power creepish in general, but there are more important issues.

Vazze · Jul 12, 2008, 05:59 PM // 17:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Does it matter? Not really. All the E/Rt needs to be is comparable to N/Rt, and then, even if SR is nerfed into the ground so badly that no-one bothers playing primary Necromancers at all any more, the E/Rt will sooner or later become as much of a balance problem as Sabway. Nerf that, and maybe it'll be those 'silly' Me/Rts - sure, they're not as strong, but if they're strong enough, doesn't that indicate that maybe all those other nerfs were mistargetted?

Mistargeted, huh? Or maybe it indicates that you have now idea what you are talking about....? We are saying here that SR is broken BECAUSE OF insane energy, and then you are coming with another broken e-management arguing beside SR....? Does that make sense to you?
SR: 5-15 pips energy regen <------Broken

ER: 10-30 pips energy regen <------Broken
5 enchant cast every 2s: 30pips
3 enchants cast every 3s: 12pips

Mesmer interrupts (at ins=14, +10s recharge and I am very generous here) <---------fine
Leech S: 1 pips (conditional)
Power D: 2.5 pips (conditional)

Energy regen of builds:
N/Rt: ~16pips <---imba
E/Rt: ~16pips <---imba
Rt/Me: ~7.1pips (ins12) <----fine
Me/Rt: ~7.5pips (ins14) <----fine

Rt sucks, if you don't have orsion and healing breeze on your monk, she can be better than any Rt. Obviously any Rt/X is still better than the corresponding X/Rt (in teh case of mesmer, that 0.4pips energy is not going to make a difference but the Rt runes will!), unless you use broken e-management like SR and ER.

manitoba1073 · Jul 12, 2008, 06:09 PM // 18:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

Yes, but you're still missing the point:

If you bring ER, you have 7 skills, plus you have to invest in Energy Storage.
If you go N/Rt, you still have 8 skills to work with, and you only have to invest in SR.

You're taking up an elite skill to do something a single attribute does perfectly.

Also, manitoba - you remind me of people from school who get kicks from being different to everyone else, even when it's detrimental to them.

And yet being different in this case is the better thing. The only ones being detrimental to themselves are the sheep that have no clue. I'd rather be the wolf.

Chthon · Jul 12, 2008, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

And this topic has changed too much onto the Ritualist issue. Soul Reaping needs to be nerfed for other reasons besides N/Rt, obviously.

Such as? This is where I say, "OK, please point to some specific overpowered builds that rely on SR to make them overpowered."

We've seen that SR gives you a whole lot of energy. There's tons of posts "proving" the obvious that SR gives you (a lot) more energy than anything besides E.Renewal. (See, for example, Vazze's post on this page.) But I've come to question the validity of the premise that a whole lot of energy, by itself, necessarily makes a build overpowered, or even good. So I want to see the dots connected -- show me specific builds that are overpowered specifically because of the energy they get from SR.

Crom The Pale · Jul 12, 2008, 07:54 PM // 19:54

Sould Reaping is powerfull, no body can possibly argue against that.

However its power should be offset by the skills the Necro has rather than by nerfing SR to the point where Necros can't run thier own skills.

If SR is solely to blame then we should be talking about Pure Necro builds that are dominating everything, not Necro/X builds that are reaping damage or healing beyond design.

Show me the Necro build, using only Necro skills, that tears apart all of GW.

Aside from limiting SR to Minions controled by that particular char, ie if a party members minions die you get 0 you must control them yourself, then there is no possible means of changing SoulReaping that will have any true effect upon builds where a Nerco/X is using secondary skills with equal effect as the primary classes those skills belong to.

kostolomac · Jul 12, 2008, 08:31 PM // 20:31

People who want a necro build as proof that SR is overpowered are a bit wrong. SR is not UB. SR and UB are two completely different things. UB is a build , SR is a method of energy management. UB is overpowered because it's the most powerful build of all. SR is overpowered because it's the most efficient method of energy management from all methods , mostly because the user of SR doesn't need to equip any particular skills to benefit from SR , stop casting spells on recharge , play in a particular style , he just plays the game like he had infinite energy , which he has. That's why SR is overpowered.

Bryant Again · Jul 12, 2008, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Another chief difference between UB and SR is that the former takes much less effort to use it to its best capabilities.

Cathode_Reborn · Jul 12, 2008, 08:43 PM // 20:43

E/Rt's are stupid. Ether Renewal shines when you're going overkill with 10e skills. That's why E/Mo prots are so good - they can have Prot Spirit/Shield Guardian/Spirit Bond all on the same bar....even that's way too much for a nec to handle. Restor bars arn't really that energy intensive. An E/Rt wastes more skillspace, including it's elite, even if the Restor elites arn't all that great. I have no idea why anyone would use an E/Rt over an E/Mo or N/Rt.

Players that consider "Sabway" overpowered are often bad and don't have a clue. There's a reason why PvE skill-balance threads often turn into a waste of space. The only thing really dominating and affecting PvE is Ursan. Soul Reaping is powerful in PvE, but not in the same way it used to be in HA. "SY" para's are also insanely good, but they also haven't managed to affect the game like Ursan has. That 1 skill alone completely changed the price on most high-end items because it made the game so easy. That right there is obviously a problem and is pretty much the only problem.

"SY" para's are just as powerful as Ursan (and better in many situations), but not in the same way, but that's a whole different thing sorta...

kostolomac · Jul 12, 2008, 08:51 PM // 20:51

UB and SY! share the first prize for the most overpowered thing in PvE. Hitting them both with the nerfbat would multiply my love factor for A.net at least by 100

Carinae · Jul 12, 2008, 09:51 PM // 21:51

I want to hear Racthoh's thoughts on SY.

Personally, I think SY simply needs a recharge that only allows it to be kept up somewhere in the 10-30% range. Leave the strength alone. It's basically Shelter, and it has a clear value. But it needs to be changed so that it cannot be maintained. Force it to be used tactically.

Also tie it to strength.

Shelter also needs a PvE version where the spirit doesn't take damage...it just last for 5-10s and ends.

EDIT: UB could probably be fixed by giving it a fixed duration of 15-30s and a 1-2 min recharge.

upier · Jul 12, 2008, 11:01 PM // 23:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

Show me the Necro build, using only Necro skills, that tears apart all of GW.

As Kosto said - the problem isn't what the build can do.
The problem is the fact that SR is so insanely out of touch with everything else in the game.
It's too good compared to other options.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Another chief difference between UB and SR is that the former takes much less effort to use it to its best capabilities.

Yeah - but something being broken badly and something being broken a bit less have a thing in common - they are still BOTH broken.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carinae Dragonblood

EDIT: UB could probably be fixed by giving it a fixed duration of 15-30s and a 1-2 min recharge.

Great!
Then you'll see 6 warriors / 2 monks - with 3 warriors morphing into Ursan at each group - while the rest recharges and they use the wiki build of the moment.